Storytelling & Branding with Matthew Banks

In this episode, Nathan interviews Matthew Banks, the founder of Merchants of the Sun, a sustainable jewellery brand. They discuss the story behind the brand, the importance of creative direction and branding in the jewellery industry, and how Merchants of the Sun stands out in a crowded market. They also talk about the brand's sustainability initiatives and the challenges of scaling an e-commerce business while maintaining the brand's ethos and quality. Matthew shares his insights on building a community, launching new products, and the unexpected challenges of running an e-commerce business.

Takeaways

• Merchants of the Sun is a sustainable jewelry brand that focuses on creative direction and branding to stand out in a crowded market.
• The brand's sustainability initiatives include using recycled materials, implementing a circular economy, and achieving carbon neutrality.
• Building a community is essential for the brand, and they engage with their customers through social media, a loyalty program, and community events.
• Product launches are approached with a focus on storytelling and aesthetics, and the brand constantly iterates and reviews their launch processes.
• The unexpected challenges of running an e-commerce business include the need for strong financial operations and effective team management.
• The future of Merchants of the Sun involves expanding their retail presence and focusing on product innovation and quality.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Focus on Creative Direction and Branding
03:10 Ranking on Etsy and the Importance of SEO
08:09 Standing Out in a Brand-Driven Industry
12:33 Building a Sustainable Jewelry Brand
21:36 Engaging and Building a Community
23:09 Product Launches and Iteration
29:15 Team Management and Working from the Gold Coast
34:28 Expanding Retail Presence and Focusing on Product Innovation

Transcript

0:01

Welcome back to the Blues Brothers podcast, the podcast in which we share the challenges, insights and triumphs that come with scaling e -commerce brands from seven to eight figures and building the remarkable teams behind them. In this episode, I'm joined with Matthew Banks, which is the founder of merchants of the sun, a sustainable jewelry brand born out of a combination of the Gold Coast and Bali. And I'll let him speak to that in a second. In this episode, I really wanted to focus on and explore branding. creative direction, something that we haven't spoken about too much in the past eight or nine episodes. So I thought Matthew would be a perfect person to speak to what is built with merchants of the sun in terms of creative direction and the branding around it. With that being said, how you doing? How you doing that? Good. Thanks for having me, Nathan. My pleasure. I wanted to start off with just the story behind merchants of the sun. Obviously I've read all about it, but it's a bit of an interesting one. You grew up in Bali, so you're close to the manufacturing. You've also built in the sustainability component of the jewelry brand. So I'll pass over to you to speak to that story. Yeah, absolutely. I think Merchants of the Sun, I started talking about merchants probably a long time before I actually started creating anything. In my late teens, I was really interested in creating a product and I was really interested in jewelry. At the time, I was freelancing graphic design, creative direction, photography, and not really feeling fulfilled within that work. And... So I was constantly looking for opportunities and I saw a really good opportunity for men's jewelry in the Australian market at the time. And I think I spoke about it for at least a couple of years, probably longer, maybe even four or five years, if I actually ever did anything about it. But I was just like, there was no availability. There was limited brands. There was already a booming, obviously, women's jewelry market, but I think it was also a novelty at the time for men to wear jewelry. So... jumped into it with the intention to create a product that was good quality, but also accessible. And I figured creating it here in Bali made the most sense, working with Balinese artisans, a lot of them generational jewelers, they've been doing it for hundreds of years. So yeah, I was able to work closely with them and conceive my first collection in late 2019. I started out with, I think I bought a hundred pieces in my first order. It was about two grand. All my savings actually, it was all I had. I had no money for marketing, no money for packaging. So I bought these little cotton pouches and I sold them all on Etsy. So my brother and I figured out that we could get the Etsy algorithm to work for us. And... Um, we were able to kind of rank two of our four products on the first page of Etsy, which coincidentally was also the first page of Google for when someone searched for men's jewelry. So we're inadvertently able to kind of get some free marketing without having to spend anything. Yeah, well, how'd you do that? Was that predominantly understanding the SEO of Etsy rankings? exactly. Exactly. So it was just looking, diving into the SEO rankings and learning what worked and what didn't work, looking at people that were creating in the space already that were doing really well and following what was already there. Yeah, nice. And so you didn't even have a website back then. It was just all through marketplaces. Yeah, so no website. That was late 2019, so that was before we had officially launched. Wanted to test the product first. So yeah, I had 100 pieces, sold them entirely through Etsy, and then it wasn't until early 2020 that I launched with our website and Shopify. Yeah, nice. And when you launched through the website and Shopify, how were you approaching marketing at the start? How were you getting people through the door? What about friends and family we My brother and I had no experience in in advertising so We were testing a few ads, but I mean it was it was pretty raw. It was pretty raw Honestly, I think we sold On the day of our launch, I think we sold Four pieces five pieces so it was it was pretty exciting stuff Yeah, yeah, nice. What took you from that friends and family essentially purchasing all your jewelry to extending out into cold audiences? What was the initial plan and then where did that plan potentially fail and you had to make pivots? Sure. Yeah, so kind of going back to my strengths, my background was in creative direction and branding. And that was two areas that I could really lean into. And I had a really good network of photographers and videographers that were willing to help me out. And yeah, early days, we literally just gained momentum from creating as much interesting and aesthetic content that we could that made our products look great. And... A lot of it was organic through Instagram, posting regularly, trying to think of different conceptualizing different shoots that we could show our product. And then yeah, we had a basic Facebook advertiser. I can't remember his name. I think we probably were spending like $50 a day on Facebook. And that was bringing in good revenue as well. That was enough for us. And I think we didn't really... realize how big it could be. So it was in first three or four months. We were probably averaging two to $3 ,000 a month. I think by July of 2020, we had done our biggest month, which was probably around eight or 10 grams. And then I collaborated with a friend of mine, Sam Collette, who is a a Netflix actor and he had a big following. We worked on a little collection together and dropped that in August. And then we had spent a big budget. That was the first time we actually spent a big budget on a creative. And we had a really concise campaign rollout and had great awareness from his following as well. And that... pushed us into 30 grand for that month or 40 grand for that month. And then I was like, okay, I've got to get serious here. And I realized I had a product and I started working with my friend Sabian from That's Good Studio who helped me actually get my ads working. Yeah, cool. One thing on jewelry and fashion really is they're very brand driven industries. And it's normally really hard to cut through in them. I have a lot of fashion brands that approach us and they're doing for $5 ,000 in revenue a month. And my answer to them normally is performance marketing in itself, just running ads probably isn't going to get you to the next stage of your business because it's so heavily brand driven and people don't just buy a t -shirt from a brand they've never heard about before unless the branding is on point. You can't just run an ad and say, hey, we have high quality fabrics buy from us. It doesn't cut through like your regular, like your regular e -comm unique product would. So how have you approached cutting through in your marketing, in your advertising and standing out amongst what is probably thousands of jewelry startups? in Australia. it's pretty crazy to see the boom of jury styles in the last couple of years. Since we started, I felt like at the time it was a novelty for people to wear jewelry, sorry for men to wear jewelry, not people. And it was kind of, I felt like men's jewelry was quite inaccessible. Now I feel like it's on the whole other end of the spectrum where every guy won at least one or two rings or a pendant. And there's a new jewelry brand popping up at least once a week, once every two weeks. So. Yeah, I think for us to stand out, we had to really lean into the aesthetics of our creative direction and our branding, really making sure that... And I think it actually goes back to our core pillars. We wanted to create a quality product, we wanted to be sustainable, and we wanted to really empower our community. So everything that we did was leaning into one of those pillars. And a lot of it was around... was purely just around aestheticisms like, hey, let's make this stuff look cool. So yeah, we always, you know, tried to think of new concepts and new ideas for every time we shot a new collection or a new campaign. We're very closely with very, very skilled creatives that helped us keep our product standing up. And yeah, I think that kind of then trickled down into our packaging design. Any, Really any element that we can create a new fresh touch point to our customer, we want to pour as much effort into it as possible. Yeah, yeah, fantastic. How does that? How does that tie into the product launches as well? Because I imagine with jewelry, you're limited to a certain set of what you can offer. You've got pendants, rings would probably be the two biggest categories in men's jewelry. And then you have a few others that I might not be thinking of right now. How do you stand out in those product lines rather than be just a ring? that anyone can buy. Like why would I buy Emotions of the Sun Ring versus an AliExpress ring that appears when I search on Google? Yeah sure. Yeah I think that's again that goes back to the power of branding. It's you know why would you buy a Ferrari over a Commodore you know. It's it's. It's the way that we present our product. We pour a lot of effort into the quality of our product, but it's a lifestyle, it's storytelling. Every time we create a new product or launch a new collection, we're really leaning into the storytelling behind that as well. And I think people connect with that and find their own meaning from that as well. But yeah, I think at the end of the day, it's... It's really setting yourself apart with your creative branding and your storytelling. Yeah. You have a unique value prop at merchants of the sun. I haven't seen it before in jewelry, but it might be, people might be copying you now with it, which is the sustainability component where it's net zero. I believe what was the, what was the reasoning that led you into building that into the products and the branding as a whole. Um, sorry, can you repeat that question? the net zero component of Merchants of the Sun. So the sustainability component, what led you to building that in to the brand? Was that there from the start or did you make a strategical decision to add that in? Yeah, sustainability, I mean, even before I created the product, it was something that I'd studied in uni and around designing for sustainability. And I really want to apply that into my product. I think growing up in Indonesia, you're a lot more face to face with pollution and waste and you see it everywhere here. And I think that was definitely inspired me to, you know, if I was going to create a product or create a brand to minimize the impact that I have on the planet. my understanding around that has definitely progressed a lot in the last two or three years and what sustainably actually looks like for a business and a product. But initially, we looked first at the material of the jury and we said, hey, silver is predominantly recycled. So we can really lead into that as a USP for our product and ensure that we use only recycled metals within our material. And then looking at a closed loop, understanding okay if that recycled silver is already in a closed loop how can we how can we keep that in a closed loop? And we were able to apply a circular economy by encouraging our customers to recycle their pieces for store credits, which we would then melt that metal down and create new pieces from. So that was kind of one area. And that was, I think, the first area we looked at for sustainability when we were wondering how we could set ourselves apart. The next thing I realized is that carbon neutrality was really important, understanding ways that we could audit and and track our carbon output and then offset that. So we worked closely with a company called Pangolin Associates who helped us become certified under the Australian government initiative called Climate Active. And that was a very arduous process. I think that was about 18 months. So it's a lot of our sustainability elements we were actually working on from like the very early inception of merchants. But... It took us so long to get certified and get accredited for a lot of those areas that it's really on their side to come out now. And I never want, I was really worried about being pigeonholed. You see it so often in fashion and e-commerce where people will call themselves sustainable without really understanding what that means and what that looks like for a brand and a product. So it was really important for me to never, you know, yell to our customers that, hey, we're sustainable. It was more like, I want them to know that we're going to do this, whether it was. whether it was a USP or not, it was something that was always going to be part of the brand. And I feel like it's something that when you dive, when you really dive into merchants, you really learn about it, you really understand how much we're doing this at scale, whether that's through our carbon neutrality or that's through using recycled materials. Working closely with the sustainable packaging company to develop entirely new materials for our packaging. And that includes things such as mycelium and fungal based. a million boxes or we've developed, we've actually launched it now. We've developed a pouch to store our jewelry. So an issue we're having was all that jewelry was oxidizing in transit. So we developed a product called Sugar Flex packaging, which is derived from, it's a bioplastic derived from sugar cane. And it's completely recyclable through soft plastics. So it was just constantly looking for, okay, what materials can we innovate? What materials can we... can we bring into the brand and the product to set us apart from our competition and also go back to keeping us aligned to our purpose and why we're doing this. Yeah. Yeah. I love to hear that because the AUSPOST puts out a report every year about all of the data that they have on every e-commerce brand that ships within Australia. And one of the statistics that they dropped in the report this year was 87%, I believe, of consumers want the brand that they purchased from to be in line with sustainability and their ethos around that. However, As you probably know, like 90 % of brands just say they're sustainable for the sake of it because they know that that's what people are looking for. And I think it's termed greenwashing where you say that you have sustainability. You say that it's, it's green, it's recyclable, for example, but it's not really, it's not really in line with those things. Yeah. because you guys actually do it, you actually cut through in every single stage of the business. How do you cut through and say, hey, we're actually we're actually legit. We're actually doing this. We're actually a sustainable brand. We're not like everyone else who just slapped sustainability on so that they can tick off a box. I think that's been the most difficult thing for us. And I think the reason why we're not so loud about it is because we don't want to fall into that category of another brand that's brainwashing. Sorry, brainwashing, screenwashing. So yeah, we're usually a lot more quieter about it, but I'm looking for ways to incorporate it into whether it's our packaging materials or elements in our website where people can learn and do their own research and that information will be readily available to them. rather than kind of plastering it all over our advertising. Because I think that's definitely a benefit of purchasing from us and wearing our products, but that's not our core USP. We're creating innovative jewelry as it is. We're creating stylish jewelry, good quality jewelry. That's our USP. Sustainability is something that customers can expect from us in addition to what we're offering. Yeah, yeah, I think that makes the most sense because if you end up pilloring yourself on just sustainability as your one USP, it's a USP that someone else can go and steal. And it's a USP that can easily be artificially manufactured when it's not it's not actually legitimate to what the company is doing. That leads into you got I might just start with something real quick, because you mentioned it with the Ospost report. But funnily enough, we were the very first jewelry label in Australia to be certified carbon neutral. But not only that, we were actually one of the first e -commerce and apparel brands in Australia to be certified carbon neutral with the climate active certification. So there was probably two or three other ones for Seek, which is, you may know it, it's a menswear brand. You can literally, you could do your research with the Climate Active Initiative and you probably wouldn't be able to find 10 e -commerce brands on there. So we're only one of the only in Australia that are doing it. Yeah, wow. Wow. That was going to lead into my next question, which I think we've already answered, but I'll ask it anyway. We'll see if you have a different answer, which is, did you have any challenges that you've faced in scaling the Ecom operations of Merchants of the Sun while maintaining the brand's ethos and level of quality? Absolutely. I think a lot of times it's kind of gone against common sense and probably better judgment. And I think anyone in business would look at what we're doing and be like, you guys obviously don't want to make any money because it doesn't make sense for you guys to shut down, you know, through Black Friday or refuse to do any sales or discounts. I mean, the great thing is that considering all of our materials recycled, if anything, we don't sell any dead stock, we can melt it down and create new products from. there is still a cost incurred with that because there is a cost of actually making the piece rather than just the raw material of it. But it's probably going to be the same for what most companies are discounting their products by anyway. So that was something that we were able to really stay true to. The second thing is, yeah, I think through times of... for the lack of a better word, probably slower discretionary spending for people in Australia. It's really hard for us to maintain and stay clear on our values and why we're doing this when the time is, it's hard to stay profitable without discounting or without putting your products on sales. But our community has been really supportive of us and I think through our... Through not putting our products in sale, I think as a result, we have a stronger brand for it. We have a stronger product and a stronger community at the end of the day. Yeah. How do you approach continuing to build that community? Is it through socials? Is it through just continuing to push across paid and improving the customer journey of those that are already in the ecosystem? Yeah, I think that can fall into so many different facets. An important one for us is obviously our socials, especially organic socials and ensuring that we're constantly engaging with our customers. We have got a discord channel that we open up to our customers. We built out a loyalty program that we call our coach club and we really approach that with how can we bring more value to our customers rather than how can we extract more value. So I think it's really, you know, however, we conduct ourselves even through events, you know, we're constantly trying to do community events and, and stuff that's not always to sell a product. For example, like we did a, um, a Valentine's day event in the shop on the Gold Coast and that was purely community building. We weren't there to sell anything, but it was a great opportunity for us to connect with our, with our audience and, um, have a good time and not, not have to promote something. Yeah. I don't think many Econ brands are doing community events around their products. I think that's a pretty unique point in itself. How do you approach product launches and collections in a way that builds hype and anticipation behind them? Do you have a formula that you've built for now every time we have a new launch? These are the steps that we go through and you have those systems or is every new launch different and it's a new mountain that you need to climb. I feel, yeah, we try and find, we try and create formulas and we try to follow, we're constantly trying to like iterate and follow a structure. But we're also just not, a lot of time we're just not that organized. But we, I've been, I'm still running the socials now and like we have a team of eight people, but I think because my background has been in creative direction and branding, it's always been something that I felt has been our strongest link to our community. So it's very hard for me to kind of let go of that. And as a result, you know, if my time is split in other areas of business, it's really hard to make sure that we're following, because we know what we need to do with our collection launches and we do track it and we do, you know, after release or after campaign, we'll review that and we'll say, okay, these are areas that we performed really well. These areas that we didn't perform really well, we're trying to iterate and we'll try next time, we'll try and follow these steps and these processes. But then a lot of time it's, you know, it can be factors such as whether maybe we have a inventory delays or, and maybe our products are stuck in, in customs. I think there's so many circumstances where nothing goes to plan. And I think it's just learning to be fluid with that and try and follow a process and follow a formula. But yeah, we do, we do kind of apply the same process with each collection launch to a degree. Yeah. Yeah. A bit of a bit of a curve ball question for you is what didn't you expect when you came into e -commerce that you realized you had to upscale on? And the reason why that question comes from is that I believe yourself and quite a few. In fact, I'd say most a com brand owners come in as very product orientated people. It's very much so about the product and the customer. And then you get thrown into a business model that actually requires heavy financial operations. And it requires a really good ability to operate on the operations side of things as well. What curve ball was thrown at you that you went up? This isn't a part of my job title, but I guess I'm doing it now and I have to figure out how to learn it from the ground up. I think it might have to be people. I think it might have to be people because I've always kind of worked for myself by myself. And I think having to support a team has definitely been one of the biggest hurdles. Understanding that I need to be... I think it's also just, you know, I put a lot of pressure on myself and I expect a lot from myself that I end up expecting that from the rest of my team. And it's understanding that everyone... you know, is their own person and that they had their strengths and they had their weaknesses. And I think that has been probably one of the biggest hurdles I've definitely been facing. I feel like I'm getting a lot better at it. The second one is exactly like you said, financials. I had to bring someone on board pretty quickly and pretty early for that. And that was more around, you know, inventory management, cashflow management and forecasting. And this is stuff that I never expected that I'd be doing when I was like... I'm going to create a jury round and create a product, you know, I'll be able to just shoot all day and take photos and make rings. But yeah, that's a very small part of a big cycle. Yeah, exactly. I think most, most people that go into Ecom don't realize that one of the biggest pillars is product. Absolutely. And is the customer and building that experience. And then the pillar right next to it is financial ops. And then arguably the pillar right next to that, once you achieve a certain scale is management of the team. And those, those other two pillars just creep up on you at a certain stage and there's not really much resourcing around it. In the early days, you can outsource marketing to a marketing agency. You can find hyper specialized people within those particular verticals. But when it comes to financial operations, you do need a, just a certain degree of knowledge within that space to even know how to fill that void. So you don't have to be doing it and management. It's really difficult to really ever step away from management. You're always going to have a few direct reports there and um, that creeps up on you while you already have a full plate. You already have so many things that you're doing. And now you're like, Oh, now I have to figure out how to manage people at the same time. Yeah. And then it's also find that balance between, you know, trying to be creative and then beyond take the space from your business to be able to be creative and innovative, but then also, you know, ensuring that your business is turning over a profit and you're being consistent. So yeah, I feel like that is a really interesting one to juggle for sure. I find that I do enjoy it. I think I enjoy the problem solving of it. I feel like a lot of it is essentially problem solving. I try and learn as much as I can and try and consume as much as I can. And I also, I'll be the first to outsource something if it's not gonna work for me. So I have a team of, I think eight, a pretty dining team of about eight to 10 people now in my office. And a lot of them wear different hats, but I've really just took the approach of, okay, like I know what I'm good at, I know I'm not good at, and I know what's gonna help. me drive this business forward and it's not going to be sitting in the weeds doing the bookkeeping on a day to day. So it's just really kind of cutting out a lot of that from my day to day. And at this point, a lot of my day to day issues that my team face doesn't really trickle down to me or trickle up to me essentially. So I'm able to kind of stay focused on what's going to grow my business. Yeah, that's fantastic. How have you found working remote across the teams, the team completely remote or is there an office in Gold Coast? Yeah, so the team's actually not remote. I mean, a lot of the crew do work from home some days. But yeah, entirely based on the Gold Coast in our headquarters in Miami. I transitioned to running the business from Bali in early 2022. So it's been two years now. First year, I had hired two people just as I left to kind of... with the expectation that, hey, I'm going to kind of step away from the ways of the business. And both has failed miserably. Obviously we're not the right people, but also probably wasn't the right roles either. And I think a lot of times you look at like social organization, you're looking like, this makes so much sense in your head. And then once it kind of rolls out, you're like, no, that doesn't make sense. And then I was kind of trying to run merchants from... Bali, well, not really having the team that I needed in Australia. So that's been a massive journey for me over the last two years. And it's only now that I've been able to find a really good balance and make that work. But yeah, that was very difficult. I was flying back to Australia every two or three months and working with my team for a week or two. But yeah, I think, yeah, it's been a transition for sure. Yeah. What have you found were if you were to go back in time to that time period, just then what roles did you need? Because we have an internal consulting framework that we've built out, which we run clients through for when they want to make a hire because everyone in e -comm ends up making the wrong hire at the start. because they don't really know what they want, but they know that they need to start offloading tasks. There's so much on the founders hands that it's I need to get rid of stuff. So let me just hire a marketing manager and throw my stuff at them without any consideration of well, what actually is a marketing manager? Do they should they be taking these roles? Where are you going to take them from from another company because they're not doing that in a different company. And there's all these questions that you start to layer in to where The question ultimately sometimes becomes, do I even need a hire someone for that role? Or can I just get a VA or can I just absorb this into a system? So what do you think if you could go back in time, what would the first two hires have been? Yeah, funnily enough, it was my first time I was the marketing manager when I set the way and my manager ended up telling me two weeks before she quit, you don't need a marketing manager. There you go. So yeah, you hit that right on the head. I think, yeah, looking back, e -commerce operations would have been a really good one. Considering if you're trying to release product to the scale, I think a lot of my day -to -day was spread between creating a product or doing a copy or updating the website, constantly like merchandise on the website. I think there was a lot of time consuming tasks around just the e -commerce. side of it. So I think the first first I'd recommend is probably the e -commerce coordinator. I think that's such a diverse role that can cover a lot of areas of your business. And again, these suggestions are based off what works for me because I'm very experienced and creative and that's what I enjoy. But the second hire, I'm really, it's funny because this is the two hires that I have now that I'm really happy with and I feel like I wish I'd had an But the second is a graphic designer. So that was where my business was bold-necking a lot. And that was because my background was in graphic design. But then if I was spent, if my time was spread so thin between running production or designing new products or trying to shoot campaigns or all the while, you know, trying to manage my team and grow the business, graphic design was one of the first things to kind of get neglected. And I feel like it was so important. for us to stay consistent on our branding. So yeah, that's been our second hire most recently. And I feel like that, if I had those two hires at the start, that would have really enabled me to kind of lean into my strengths. Yeah, I think that's fantastic feedback. And that is what I would normally recommend as well, which is a commops takes up so much time. And it normally. is really easy to hire for that role and offload the works. It's relatively systematizable. And then graphic design, if you don't have an agency that's managing all of the graphic design, taking that in -house makes absolute total sense, depending on the brand, right? Some brands don't need the graphic design demands that Merchants of the Sun would need. But I still do think it as a first five to 10 hire makes complete sense. Looking to the future, how do you see the brand evolving and growing over the next few years? I think what we underestimated was the power of our retail store. So I think our house and merchant store on the Gold Coast has just been a great way for us not only to connect with our audience and our community and really open up the opportunity for our customers to kind of go in and feel the product, but it has also been a massive revenue driver for us. So I think we're really gonna lean into that and I'm currently building our second store here in Bali. Also gonna be my new office, creative space. I'm gonna put a photo studio now, I've got all the ideas. But yeah, I think that we're really gonna roll out on a bit more scale. I think next step would probably be a store in LA. We're seeing the US market really pump for us at the moment and I think there's a lot of opportunity for us there. So. It makes more sense for us to have a store there than us to work with a 3PL because a lot of them don't know how to manage jewelry inventory or how to ship it. We also have quite a white glove approach with our packaging. There's a lot of different elements and yeah, it's just, it's way more cheaper and way more cost -effective for us to have a store there. And looking at the performance of Astro on the Gold Coast, I think it would be a great way for us to build our brand there as well. Yeah, I think it really leads into retail. That's a big focus for us. I'm also working very hard on elevating and refining our product. So I think we're maturing as a brand, I'm maturing as a designer and I'm really understanding what makes a good product as far as jewelry. And I'm really trying to apply myself a lot more to the innovation side of my product design, but also just quality as well, really leading into innovation and quality with developing my products. So. Yeah, that's kind of my two focuses for this year. Yeah. Yeah, that's super exciting. Super exciting. Appreciate it, Matthew. I think this was a really valuable one. If anyone listening hasn't checked out, I'm most into this arm. I definitely recommend I think, as you said, a leader in pushing a value prop that most people just slap on to a brand without any consideration about the actual operations behind it. And also a leading men's jewelry brand in Australia on the branding and creative front. I think a lot of note taking could be done just by looking through your site and your socials and how you're approaching everything end to end. So I really appreciate it. Thanks, Ed.